We Must Discuss...Netflix’s Baby Reindeer
Brittany at We Must Discuss x Michel at TV Scholar
When I first watched Baby Reindeer, I flew to my favourite Instagram account – TV Scholar – to see what Michel had to say. This was not a show I felt I could review or recap in my quick and silly monthly Deep Dives. Baby Reindeer, a biographical series written by and starring Richard Gadd, is an experience that requires community support.
I met with TV Scholar’s Michel Ghanem, arguably the most booked and busy writer in Vancouver, in a Google Doc to discuss our thoughts, traumas, and hang-ups about Netflix’s hit series.
(TW: Baby Reindeer carries some heavy themes of abuse, sexual assault, and substance abuse. Take care when watching, and scrolling through our dialogue).
Brit: We need to get it out of the way…will you ever look at Sent by my iPhone the same? I think my brain automatically scrambles it into Martha’s weird typo now.
Michel: I think you mean “Ifone.” That device was brilliant, I really felt like Martha was a constant presence in Donny’s life and I read every email. Some of them were really funny, too: “billin beetroot out my vajinya!!! reams of teh gunk! doctor says ive got the eggs of a twenty years old! So when woulds u like to poach them?” I giggled. It set me up to think this would be a more straight-forward comedy. Like Pretty Little Liars on shrooms, or something. I was so, so wrong.
Brit: There was a moment in this show where I really thought I knew where the story was heading and then it became very clear that I absolutely did not. Admittedly, I knew nothing about it before heading in other than there was a freaky stalker storyline. Did you have that same moment of being like “Ohhhh, this show is so much more than true crime”?
Michel: Same! The show was dropped to very little fanfare in its first few days, I suspect Netflix had no idea they had a hit on their hands. On its premiere date, only a small handful of critics even reviewed it (meaning the Netflix PR team didn’t do a great job sending out screeners or spreading the word to critics before the premiere date—I certainly didn’t get any emails). All of that contributed to the haze of mystery surrounding the show, truly a word-of-mouth hit.
Brit: I need to know what led Martha, all dejected and despondent, into that bar.
Michel: I find the true crimeification of the show sort of troubling (as that review points out), and I’ve seen a bunch of clickbait headlines to lure viewers into finding out more about Martha’s backstory. I think by showing Donny in the same shoes in the final shot of the season (spoiler!), the show suggests it was kind of a chance encounter/lucky moment for Martha to find someone who wouldn’t just ignore her. That would be my best guess.
Brit: I worked in the service industry for years, and regulars are very much a thing – even in family restaurant chains where I worked. Before the emails started, I felt a pang of familiarity watching Donny being chirped and fussed over by Martha at his bar. Lonely regulars stick with you.
Michel: Ah! I worked in retail for five years and had similar experiences. We had one customer who would buy items in bulk online, five of each size, and return them all at our store. We’d see them almost daily. I think shopping compulsion is a real thing but I also wonder if there’s an element of the human interaction and the familiarity of place that regulars gravitate to, providing some kind of soothing relief to what they are dealing with otherwise. I think it’s one way to build a sense of community in a lonely life. I know in adulthood I’ve really appreciated seeing the same barber, massage therapist, doctor, and so on—there’s a sense of joy and companionship from building those roots in your city, and I like to think I’m a pleasant recurring face in their lives too. Martha took it a few steps too far, obviously (and why order a Diet Coke if you’re not going to drink it?!).
Brit: The sad melty glass of Diet Coke killed me!
I need to know if you’ve ever had a stalker situation before. If we can talk about it on the Internet…lol. When I was a kid, a classmate was behaving in a stalker-ish way with me, so much so that parents had to get involved. I don’t think I’ve ever been able to shake that feeling!
Michel: No way…having a stalker at any age is scary, but as a kid I’m not sure how I would handle it. Thankfully, I haven’t had a stalker (*knocks on wood*). I’ve had more aggressive pursuers on dating apps? In one case, I blocked one guy who was messaging incessantly, only for him to make a fake profile and message me from there, pretending to be someone else until I realized something was off. I feel like that’s borderline stalker behaviour. Luckily my tvscholar followers are super wonderful and mostly just message me their TV-watching reactions!
Brit: I’m glad the internet is respectful of our TV king!
Re-watching Baby Reindeer a second time, knowing the outcome and settling into the show more, I am blown away by Jessica Gunning’s performance. Her ability to bring a storm of emotions into every scene. Do you think we’ll be seeing more of her?
Michel: First of all, you’re so brave for re-watching. I agree, I was blown away by Gunning. I had never seen her in anything I’ve watched but I now want her in everything. She showcased such emotional range and I can’t imagine it was an easy character to embody. Her pivot from like, full-on rage to scary stalker to sweet and vulnerable…and her laugh! She really sells the show, I think. I’d like to see an Emmy nomination. She’ll certainly be up for a TV Scholar Award.
Brit: But also!!! Speaking of new-to-me talent: I am now Nava Mau’s #1 fan.
Michel: Absolutely! I was left wanting more from Nava Mau, which is the ideal. That character—and I mean, the whole central cast of characters—felt so believably written and authentic. What a relief.
Brit: I need to know when Martha started to really freak you out. For me, it was the zipper scene at the end of the first episode. I also find it insane that she walked around using her real name on social media, in public, given that she was a convicted and highly Googleable stalker?!
Michel: I honestly had no idea where the plot was heading so I remember thinking she was mostly harmless—until that diner scene (episode 2, I believe) when she has the massive outburst in front of everyone at the restaurant. At that moment I knew she has the kind of emotional volatility that really scares me in people in general, with no sense of restraint in behaving that way in public settings, which is doubly scary. Unbridled rage is so unpredictable. It’s the reason I would never hang out with anyone from The Real Housewives, lol.
Brit: This is such a good point. I love Housewives and could NEVER be at a dinner/in a Sprinter van with any of them.
You made a bit of a connection between Baby Reindeer and I May Destroy You on your Instagram post, which I so appreciated because it was one of the first things that came to mind as I stayed the course of this series and we got into the darker side of Gadd’s story. I respect Michaela Coel so much but I couldn’t get through IMDY – it felt hyper-real in a way that I couldn’t safely stomach. What do you think about Gadd’s ultra-vulnerable approach to sharing his story about cycles of abuse, sexual assault, and substance use? What was your gut reaction?
Michel: I May Destroy You definitely has a grounded realism that makes you feel like you experienced the story right alongside Arabella (Coel)—the viewer unearths more details about the assault as she experiences them, whereas Baby Reindeer is more of an unravelling. Each episode peels back another layer on Donny and how his experiences have contributed to him giving Martha the time of day and where he’s at in life.
I think both shows have equal levels of honesty and vulnerability—IMDY is based on Coel’s sexual assault while writing Chewing Gum, but I would argue IMDY was a bit less gratuitous in its depictions of the actual assaults throughout the season. This might be a controversial take! But I found the fourth episode of Baby Reindeer to be absolutely brutal to get through, the systematic breaking down of Donny’s boundaries through drugs and promises of career advancements. I was sick to my stomach by the end of the episode.
Brit: So was I. I watched it in the middle of a weekend afternoon and it felt very odd to carry on with the day after.
Michel: IMDY certainly has traumatic scenes, but Arabella is so damn resourceful and powerful as a character, which was really cathartic to watch. There’s no dilly-dallying. She immediately meets with sexual assault detectives who open a case; she joins a recovery group for survivors; she leans on her friends and family; she becomes outspoken on social media about her experience’ and when she’s assaulted a second time by someone else, she outs him immediately. It’s less doom and gloom than Baby Reindeer, in that way. IMDY’s finale blew me away—Arabella imagines every permutation of a revenge plot against the initial rapist.
Wait, you need to watch! I don’t want to spoil further. I’m a huge IMDY stan. That being said, I think both shows are written in nuanced and careful ways and are equally valuable and important to contemporary television and representations of sexual assault/memory/trauma/queerness/etc.
Brit: You’ve convinced me to give it another shot!
I had that sour feeling when watching episodes four through six of Baby Reindeer, where I felt like I was in on something I shouldn’t have been. But on the flip side, the script never felt cheap or tacky or on the nose.
Michel: Exactly…I think the sour feeling I got was around depicting the shitty sides of Donny’s behaviour (how he treated everyone he dated, for example), and remembering that these are all real people. There was a recent investigation after actress Reece Lyons wrote about some lines being blurred between dating and auditioning for Gadd (she was auditioning for the role of Teri). Gadd was cleared of wrongdoing and Lyons was clear in saying there was no abuse, but it was just a…sus situation. And a reminder that our understanding of his trauma gives us empathy for what he’s been through—but doesn’t excuse bad behaviour if this is a larger pattern (Lyons’ tweets seem to suggest it is). I wanted to make sure I mentioned that!
Brit: Okay, woah, that hadn’t come across my desk. This adds an important texture and nuance to the story. I think it’s fair to watch Baby Reindeer with caution and acknowledgement that the story is skewed towards Gadd’s bias, for sure.
Okay, breaking into lighter territory for a minute – one thing I could never quite get behind was Donny’s comedy style…. But also! It astonished me that a character with such troubling confidence issues would choose (or maybe entertain?) such an eclectic style of performance art…
Michel: Right?! Okay, his comedy would make me giggle if I saw it in person, I feel like he has some harsh audiences. I see clips of male comics online that go viral with sillier jokes, I feel like the bar is pretty low. It did make me think about stand-up on television in general, though. It can be hard to capture on-stage comedy through short scenes in a captivating way. I’ve seen plenty of commentary about how Deborah Vance’s comedy on Hacks is…not really funny! But the show at least captures how public favour influences being perceived as funny. In the third season premiere, Deborah is at the height of her fame, and every single thing she says is greeted with booming laughter from an audience—as opposed to bombing at every show in previous seasons. I didn’t think Midge on The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel was particularly funny either. Remember Feel Good on Netflix with Mae Martin? Miss that little gem.
I actually think Baby Reindeer has more in common with the Jerrod Carmichael Reality Show, which isn’t scripted, but showcases a lot of Jerrod’s stand-up which I hesitate to even call comedy because it feels more like he’s monologuing to a therapist. The piece here is bringing vulnerability into comedy, which can be captivating, relatable, and comedic in all of its awkwardness and raw delivery. Jerrod has been proving himself hard to root for on that show, too (he won’t stop cheating on his sweet, academic boyfriend). Are you a fan of stand-up in general?
Brit: I am a fan of stand-up, but I also get very intense secondhand embarrassment really easily. I find it impossible to watch people bomb onstage – live or scripted. I even have a hard time with scripted or unscripted with cringe comedy. I feel like I’m missing out on a huge part of culture because I’m just not built for Nathan Fielder! But you make a good point about on-stage comedy not always translating on screen, I think it’s similar to writing/acting intoxication, or even like, horniness or sex, it rarely lands! I stand by Deborah Vance’s comedy though…
Michel: Well, to wrap things up—thank you for having me! I had a lot of thoughts rattling around in my brain about the show and it’s a relief to be in conversation as opposed to siloed in my own bubble.
On a television industry front, I’m curious to see how Netflix mobilizes Baby Reindeer for Emmy nominations. It would be up against Shōgun, Fargo, Expats, and True Detective: Night Country in the Limited Series category, and likely the show with the smallest budget and least famous cast. I also hope it makes ripples across the industry, which is at a major pivot in its obsession with profit to double down on intellectual property and franchises, instead of supporting indie creators and original work. Netflix just picked up Penelope, Mark Duplass’ self-funded series that he created with his salary from The Morning Show—I’d like to think Baby Reindeer’s success is already affecting those kinds of strategic decisions. Plus, a reminder that nuanced, queer stories can still be massive hits—absolutely crucial at a time when trans rights are under attack. Hopefully, we all leave our Baby Reindeer watching experience with more empathy and humanity.
Brit: Thank you, Michel!!! This was a dream.
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Thanks again for having me, Brittany! Still thinking about Baby Reindeer tbh...
I'm going to watch it now- great interview, Britt!! It's been on my list, currently watching Under The Bridge which is also a heavy watch so I'm going to space it out