We Must Discuss…The Substance
It's a WMD x McFly's Movie House cross-over!
(Content warning: body dysmorphia, binge eating, and, film spoilers)
I’ve heard it be called disgusting, relentless, the worst movie ever, the best movie ever, a masterpiece, a torturous experience! The Substance has been nothing if not polarizing.
The Substance is a 2024 satirical body horror film from writer/director/producer Coralie Fargeat. It centres on Elisabeth Sparkle (Demi Moore), a Hollywood Walk of Fame earning, high-cut leotard-wearing, raven-haired fading celebrity who is haunted by the patriarchal and societal symptoms of middle age. A black-market drug comes into her life at just the right time, and with one violent dose, we meet the younger, souped-up version of herself, Sue (Margaret Qualley).
But the fountain of youth in The Substance comes at a gruesome cost. Cue the mayhem and mind-bending gore and the most intense finale I have ever gasped through.
I finally saw The Substance last weekend and I left the theatre incredibly nauseous, punching the air with a weak little fist, and with much to discuss.
Joining me in the Google Doc this week is the inimitable Marta Djordjevic—a writer, editor, and podcaster who logs more films per week on Letterboxd than there are hours in the day. In other words, the perfect person to help me untangle my thoughts and feelings about this movie.
BRIT: Marta! I am so thrilled to bring you into the We Must Discuss fold!
MARTA: Brit, I am so excited to chat with you about this film — thank you so much for having me! When you pitched this idea, I practically leaped up from my seat. As it stands right now, The Substance is sitting pretty as one of my favourite horror movies of 2024. It's gloriously repulsive but also has an incredibly strong message!
BRIT: Hell yeah. High praise coming from you!
I am in a state of hyperfixation and need to talk out everything about this movie that left me both revolted and so deeply seen. Everything from the set design by Stanislas Reydellet, to the font choices for the Substance branding (lol). The visuals of this film are loud, angular, pungent, and unsettling.
If I may dive into the shallow end, I think what I loved right from the jump was that The Substance didn’t live in any specific timeline. It was both contemporary and dated – I mean, who watches jazzercise videos anymore?!
But every little nod to the horrors of aging and womanhood felt incredibly visceral. As soon as we got the contrast of Demi Moore’s (beautiful!!) aging body and booty, against Margaret Qualley’s taut figure,I thought I was going to scream. Fargeat’s lens spotlighted, I think, the deepest insecurities of most women in that one glimpse.
MARTA: I'm so glad you brought up those jazzercise videos because they totally threw me for a loop, too! I couldn't initially peg the timeline at all. The last time a jazzercise video entered my consciousness was for Eric Prydz's Call on Me music video (a blast from the past for us millennials), which, now that I think about it, really reminds me of the routine Sue performs later on!
To piggyback off of your point, however, I agree entirely. Choosing not to set the film in a specific year keeps it timeless. After all, these insecurities we face as women have plagued us for decades! How clever it was to cast Demi Moore, as well — an undoubtedly gorgeous woman who can still share similar struggles as the rest of us. I felt like parts of the film almost mimicked what happened to her in Hollywood, too. In the '80s, she was a part of the "Brat Pack," she was once the highest-paid woman in Hollywood... until she wasn't. Stars fade, and people forget. It's how life goes.
BRIT: Yes! Even before seeing the film, I couldn’t stop talking about how Demi Moore was an impeccable casting choice. I read her memoir Inside Out in the early days of COVID quarantine, and her story really stuck with me. She’s such an icon, and also a flawed and scarred human. Her memoir’s career retrospective made her feel like the natural choice for this part in my mind.
MARTA: I couldn’t agree more, and I’m so glad you reminded me about her memoir — I still need to read that!
It was fantastic to see her tackle this role. Her vulnerability and openness make the film so powerful. That scene where she's getting ready for a date and looking in the mirror at herself broke me. I resonated with it so much.
BRIT: I think that scene was one of the most grounded in reality of the film.
The blush, concealer, wipe off, reapply, Catch a reflection, instant self-hatred, rinse and repeat. My friend and I were clutching each other at that point because how many of us have been there? How many of us are there all the time?
MARTA: Exactly, I really saw it as the most profound moment in the film! Much like yourself, I remember wincing during that scene since it just felt so painfully familiar. It then led me to wonder if I would have resonated this much with the film had I seen it maybe ten years ago. I don't think so.
BRIT: I want to talk about aging and cosmetic enhancements for a sec. I’m very open about the shit I do to my face. It’s not a lot, a little Botox on my forehead. I get regular facials and apply retinol, and pluck my grays. Mostly, I don’t give a fuck. I like talking about this with my friends – one time a friend shamed me for getting Botox and thought I was joking when I told her. Which is truly insane but also I feel that this can be a blind spot in my community of progressive femmes; we get a little lost in the sauce sometimes.
I really believe that if we’re all fighting for the liberation of women’s bodies, we’ve got to look at the whole picture.
MARTA: Amen, girl! Me too. Although we still have a long way to go with including that "whole picture," as you put so perfectly, I see some changes being made. Speaking out about getting Botox or lip fillers is a lot less taboo now than it was ten or twenty years ago. I mean, remember what the tabs were printing in the early aughts?! It's horrifying to look back at the slanderous things people were saying about cosmetic procedures.
That said, I think it's fantastic when people are open about what they do with their faces. Not to say you owe anyone to go parading and screaming from the rooftops, but why not own it if someone asks? I mention this because in today's social media-obsessed world — and especially for all the younger women who use it — to see an influencer or celebrity lie about work they've done while touting something like, I don't know, smearing olive oil all over your skin to look younger, well, that's misleading. And when someone inevitably falls for it and buys into these bogus methods that don't work, it leads to an entire host of new insecurities. Thoughts like, "Why don't I look like her if I'm doing what she's telling me to do?"
BRIT: Totally. I heard the saying, “You’re not ugly, you’re just poor,” and never looked back. Which is a gauche thing to say, but..!! I stopped comparing myself or even admiring the cosmetic enhancements of anyone outside of my tax bracket a long time ago. I do think content creators are bringing back social envy, though: I even find myself getting a little too obsessed with Lucy from Brooklyn’s (fake creator, real vibe) clothing, facials, workout routine, etc.
But who I really want to talk about this stuff with is with my friends. A glass of wine and a deep dive into frivolous bullshit like cosmetic injectables?! It can be healing for the 90s kid who spent a lot of time gawking at awful grocery store rags.
MARTA: Yes! When it comes to this film, one of my favourite parts was getting to watch it with my best friend. After, as we left the theatre and chatted, we shared moments that hit us the most. What was interesting was we both picked different scenes. It makes sense — our insecurities are different, too. And yet, having that shared experience was something I really cherished.
And so, that’s why I think something like The Substance coming along and becoming such a major part of the pop culture discussion is what's so fabulous. The fact that women like you and I can sit and talk about all of this and have an opportunity to share that, “hey, we all go through these challenges”. There is power in numbers, and the more we keep talking about it, the less scary the concept of aging will be. For me, those quieter moments of the film, like that mirror scene I mentioned earlier, stuck with me the most.
How did you feel during that moment?
BRIT: Oh, I felt so many things. Uncomfortable. Squeamish. Seen? I also loved that the set design made all bathrooms in The Substance incredibly clinical and devoid of any emotion. It was all about the mirror – or a lifeless body, or a shower sob – with zero romanticization of the setting. And I get it! I often feel like the bathroom is a place of surgery. I open up my makeup bag and medicine cabinet to 500 million products that I slap on my face because, I love skincare and makeup and beauty, and also because being a woman is hard, and life is a lot, and the world is probably ending, and so maybe this $45 Rare Beauty blush will make me look alive and well?
It made me feel that, regardless of our ilk, so many of us struggle under the relentless gaze of vanity.
But now, let’s get into the plot devices in this film. I’m curious to hear about what worked for you in The Substance and what challenged you.
MARTA: With pleasure! So, while I loved The Substance, one element didn't quite work for me as much as I thought it would. It’s that utterly unhinged final act. And this is where things get tricky for me since, as I'm sure you've seen during my spooky season Letterboxd reviews, I love a grotesque and twisted horror flick. Total aside, but I'm using this as a chance to highlight Brian Yuzna's Society from 1989 — another body horror that pairs perfectly with The Substance (and I'm pretty sure one major scene in Yuzna's film inspired Fargeat, visually, at least). Anyway! Even though I adore a good splatterfest, this final act felt a bit misplaced for me with the movie's overall message.
Throughout the film, I really felt for Elisabeth, and as fun as the movie is, it was painful to watch her transform further and further into her "final form," if you will. Once we get to that final act, it almost feels excessively cruel to sit in a packed theatre and belly-laugh along with everyone else at what's happening to her. Mind you, this wasn't a thought I had during the screening (I was hooting throughout), but after walking home, I felt suddenly sad. Sad about the inevitability of aging. There's a moment in The Substance, about 20 minutes before the actual end, where I think it would have been a perfect spot to wrap things up.
BRIT: I do have to agree with you. It went on 20 minutes too long and the ending was absolutely unhinged. Me and my friend were laughing so hard and so nervously because we just couldn't get over what the fuck we were seeing. I felt like a baby that couldn’t decide what it wanted: to giggle or cry.
But also on the flip side, if I zoom out, Monstro Elisasue at the climax was the most metal thing I’ve ever seen in my life. And sometimes girl, that’s how I feel?
It’s a crazy thing to put on paper, but when I am in the middle of a very intense PMDD week, trying to put my makeup on for a fucking work function, only just show up feeling like an absolute goblin? My spirit is definitely giving Monstro Elisasue, going ape shit.
MARTA: You raise a really good point, and I can totally understand how that climax would resonate! Also, Elisasue may be my favourite name in horror, ever.
One thing that worked quite well for me and that I know some other folks didn't vibe with was how "underdeveloped" Qualley's Sue is. And, don't get me wrong, initially, my mind was racing when we met her. I panicked, like, "How will she travel without a passport?! SHE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A LAST NAME!" Then, as the film went on, it clicked for me: Nobody cares. What I think Fargeat does so well is she showcases that this Hollywood machine doesn't give a shit about these young stars — all that matters is that they're hot enough. I really, really thought this was a clever way to display that.
What do you make of all my babbling, or better yet, what did you think about that bananas ending?
BRIT: In my mind, Sue wasn’t meant to be developed. She existed only as envy, only as a body. That was her value: for herself, for the viewers, for the shareholders, and for Elisabeth.
And that ending? After all the blood and hoopla? Exhausting and perfect. Melting into the monster that made her (Hollywood) – that’s how you wrap up a story, folks!
MARTA: Bingo! “Existed only as envy” – that’s such a fantastic way to put it.
BRIT: I want to get more into the freaky sci-fi elements and supporting characters… But first I need to bring up the use of food and how absolutely disgusting they somehow made…everything. Dennis Quad and the shrimp soaked in mayo? It’s like Fargeat cast him just to make us hate him even more.
The aftermath of Elizabeth’s eating episodes really stung me. The portrait of her desperation and psychotic state will resonate with a lot of people, like me, who have struggled with binge eating. There is nothing more shameful than seeing the spoils of a greasy binge in the daylight. I couldn’t imagine having to reveal my secrets to my young self! How demoralizing! Also, I think The Substance has ruined rotisserie chicken for me forever!!!!
MARTA: I'm so happy you brought up Quad's vile eating habits in this film — I remember almost gagging during that shrimp scene. Yuck!
Yeah, the aftermath of the eating episodes really hit home for me, too. Much like the mirror scene, it's yet another powerful example of what I found to be the film's central message: the self-loathing that can exist within so many of us. To take that scene as an example, that's when I think The Substance is at its most effective: when it toes that line between being a clever satire (like Elisabeth splattering food in a fit of rage while watching Sue on TV) and a grotesque horror (in this case, the morning after, where we witness what's probably the most vile post-binge buffet put to screen).
When it comes to gross-out scenes and freaky sci-fi elements, the stand-out for me was Sue's "birth." It felt like something straight out of a David Cronenberg film, and my jaw was just on the floor. When I first heard about the movie, I wondered how on earth Fargeat was going to portray that change from Elisabeth to Sue. Never would I have imagined that scene. It's seared into my eyeballs to this day.
Is there a bonkers sci-fi moment that stood out to you the most?
BRIT: Holy shit that Sue birthed out of the spine scene had me manic nervous laughing, it was so much more vile than I could have imagined. That moment, and the general regime of the substance itself I found fascinating! This drug required some serious upkeep!
Now Marta, can you talk us through what exactly happens in The Substance? What is the substance, and how does it work? I feel that you will be more concise with the plot summary!
MARTA: I absolutely can, and you did a fab job setting the stage for me earlier by introducing Elisabeth and Sue! As you mentioned, Elisabeth was once a Tinseltown A-lister (clear by that Hollywood Walk of Fame star) and has since settled into a job as a TV aerobics host. One day, she gets fired by her boss, Harvey (we discover that it's because he's deemed her too old). So, Elisabeth gets wind of this black market drug called The Substance, which promises her a "younger, more beautiful, more perfect" version of herself.
After mulling it over, Elisabeth decides to proceed with the self-injection, and then we bear witness to that utterly horrific moment where her back slices open and out comes Sue! A fully-grown woman! But here's the catch. Elisabeth's consciousness gets transferred to Sue's body. From there, she gets seven days in this younger form, while Elisabeth remains unconscious with daily doses of this "stabilizer fluid" that keeps the body functioning.
BRIT: If I may interrupt, what honestly stressed me out the most in this film was the sheer amount of instruction?! Girl, I can barely build a piece of IKEA furniture, let alone find the attention span to piece this quest together?!
MARTA: Yes!!! I had the exact same thought. And not even just that, but the literal building of that private room! When Sue grabbed her tool kit and started creating that space, I was giggling along with the entire audience. I’m the same as you – even IKEA instructions are on par with understanding astrophysics for me!
But back to the plot. So, after seven days, Sue must switch back. As we discover, being full of youth is way too enticing, and she suddenly starts bending that rule back, with severe consequences.
Here's a fun question for you: Would you take The Substance? The same rules apply!
BRIT: Okay, insane question. But obviously, I thought about it the whole movie. I waffled a lot..Sometimes, I have an insatiable desire for my old body, for the frantic, inconsequential actions of my early twenties—my era of thrilling, infinite jest.
But ultimately no, I actually am very into the idea of getting older in my own way. I often think about my older future self as kind of a Lily Tomlinson in Grace & Frankie character: curly gray hair, kaftans, chunky jewelry. Ultimately, I'm excited to age, and I do think the natural injection of wisdom and self-assured kookiness as I get older is hot as hell.
You?! It’s a safe space here!
MARTA: Y’know, I waffled with the idea, too. Initially, I thought, of course, I’d want to! The rules seemed easy enough to follow, and I thought it was just so foolish that Sue couldn’t stick to the plan.
That being said, I feel the same way you do. I talk about this with my friends often — how, as every year passes, I feel more confident in my own skin. For example, when I was younger, I'd pile on so much makeup, whereas now, I can leave the house bare-faced and totally not give a shit. And just like you said, the wisdom that comes with aging is so attractive (I actually touched on this in my Letterboxd review). It's something we should all be celebrating and embracing the older we get!
BRIT: The archetypes in this movie are strong, but not so on the nose that it feels cheap. Elisabeth’s Sue – remember they are one – is giving the age-old tale of the Maiden and the Crone. Dennis Quad’s Harvey – as Screen Rant points out – represents the ogling, destructive male gaze.
MARTA: Yes! I am so happy you brought up the Maiden and the Crone within Sue and Elisabeth – and that you're highlighting that they are one. One argument I kept hearing throughout this Substance discourse was, how are they one if Sue wakes up with seemingly no recollection of Elisabeth's poor decisions, and vice versa? Well, I think it speaks to the fact that whenever that switch happens, even if they share the same consciousness, they're in different parts of their lives, and therefore, their greatest desires will also be different. Sue, being younger, is, of course, more selfish and doesn't care about consequences. I mean, how many times have you done something in your youth because you "just didn't care," and looking back now, you totally cringe at how dumb you were?
You could also argue that Sue's actions — like her overzealous use of The Substance — speak to the addiction to beauty and beauty standards. Even calling the serum "the substance" almost makes it seem like an addictive drug.
Harvey, as you said, absolutely represents that ogling male gaze—as does Elisabeth/Sue's neighbour! Before Fargeat's film pivots to really shine a light on feminine self-loathing, Quad's character is such a powerful archetype that that's what I thought the main message of the movie would be: how to navigate that repulsive misogyny. I'm so glad that it ended up being meatier than that.
BRIT: I re-listened to the Critics At Large episode about Body Horror. The two female co-hosts have favourable things to say about The Substance but Vinson Cunningham isn’t so sure. His question is: how much does Fargeat care about middle age?
What do you think?
MARTA: Oh my gosh, I think Fargeat definitely cares. I actually got to watch The Substance early and review it, so I had the chance to read Fargeat's press release. In it, she put it bluntly: The Substance is about women's bodies. She further explained, "About how women's bodies are scrutinized, fantasized about, criticized in the public space. About how much, as women, we are led to believe that we have no choice but to be perfect/ sexy/smiling/thin/young/beautiful to be valued in society." Fargeat then talks about her own experiences in the industry, and you really feel her rage through her words. To take that rage and to put it to the camera how she did — that speaks volumes to her stance on middle age and aging, in general.
As I mentioned earlier, I really believe The Substance is effective when it plays up the satire (but not too much) — the utter absurdity of it all! As we both said earlier about choosing to cast Moore as Elisabeth, that's no mistake. It only underscores how absurd it is that someone as attractive as her can still feel so unwanted. Society has conditioned us, as Fargeat herself notes, to dread aging and to feel like we're living in a ticking time bomb of youth.
Throwing it back to you: What do you think about all of this? I know I mentioned earlier that the final act didn’t quite work for me, but perhaps it speaks to Fargeat’s own rage that society has made us this way.
BRIT: She put Demi Moore and Margaret Qualley into the most fucked up monster suit I’ve ever seen. Monstro Elisasue broke out the hot tools and curled singular strands of hair as a last-ditch effort to get ready for national television.
Fargeat made this movie for us. It wasn’t for you Vinson!!! (I’m sorry, I love you!).
MARTA: I could not believe what I was watching during that hair-curling scene. So many uncomfortable chuckles were had!
It’s also interesting, now that I think about it, that ElisaSue slaps that picture of Elisabeth on her face as she leaves her home and heads to the studio. After trying so hard to be younger, suddenly, looking like she did at the start of the film is what she wanted in the end. It came full circle!
BRIT: Oh my god, absolutely.
There were so many energizing but also deeply unsettling style choices in this film. I mentioned earlier that I loved the font choices but also, the Challenger’s-esque score by Raffertie (did he and Trent Reznor compare notes?!) made everything feel more electric, scary, on a treadmill of dread that went on and on. As soon as the film kicked off my friend said “wait, did Trent Reznor do this score too!?” I share this with love and admiration!
MARTA: I love that you’re bringing up the score from Challengers — I literally had the exact same thought! It only adds to the pulsating, exhilarating energy. It’s the sonic version of just gripping you extra tight and not letting go until the credits roll (and when they do, we get that loud font again visually screaming at you!).
BRIT: I feel better now and more affirmed in my shocking love of this insane movie.
I don’t think I said this enough but proceed with caution. It's so gross. There are needles, wounds, strange morphing bodies, spinal fluid, and disgusting gnarled joints. But damn, I had fun. If you love Death Becomes Her, you will be all in for The Substance.
Final parting words, Marta? I am so glad we got a taste of McFly’s movie house over at the We Must Discuss HQ! Thank you for chatting with me!
MARTA: Well, first of all, I just want to thank you again for having me here! This was such a blast, and I'm always genuinely so elated to yap about The Substance. Yes, it's an utterly deranged movie sometimes, but it's also such a fun experience to have if you watch it in a group or with a few of your closest pals (although, I would perhaps skip the popcorn, as I couldn't even touch mine while all this relentless bedlam was going on). Having seen this and Revenge from 2017, I'm so stoked to follow along and see what Fargeat does next!
I hope your Halloween was extra spooky this year, and I'm looking forward to the next time we talk shop! Until then, let's just both remember to always respect the balance.
Follow Marta on Instagram and Letterboxd–a cinephile’s paradise!